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Battle of Forli battle mission opinions (DLC spoilers)

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I've rather enjoyed Sequence 12 as a whole. It fits well and fleshes out the game more, making it feel more complete. I've played through it three times thus far.

The first couple of missions are straight forward. You can fight as much as you want as long as you don't get out of range of your two allies and neither of them die. They don't die when falling from great heights, but they do die when falling into water.

Caterina is insane (and not in a good way). She'll attack anything that moves and she dives right into the middle of combat with just her short blade. She dies fairly easily due to lousy defensive abilities, so you kind of have to babysit her. She's like a little kid that just won't listen when you tell them not to play in the middle of the street. You really have to keep an eye on her to keep her from getting herself killed. Especially when there's water nearby for her to fall into.

Seriously, this woman is nuts. One minute I'll be following her up to the top of the fortress walls, the next I look around and see her, with just one health circle remaining, jumping out onto the rope over the courtyard, where she stops and tries to slap down a guard. Within seconds, there were four additional guards on that rope with her and she didn't even bat an eye. Not even as they slapped her off and she plunged to her death. Tongue

Machiavelli is tough. There's no doubt in my mind that he's a trained Assassin. I don't know what sword he's using (not much of a defining hilt) but he deals a lot of damage and has great defense. It looks like it might be a better sword than the Sword of Altair, as Machiavelli kills Brutes and Seekers with relative ease. What I'm curious about is if you can pick up his sword.

Failing a mission tends to save stuff you've done during the mission, like what weapons you've picked up. As Machiavelli will likely never die on his own, if Ezio were to repeatedly attack him to whittle down his health and then he were to die, I wonder if it's possible to pick up his sword in those few moments where the animus fades everything out. If Ezio doesn't already have a medium weapon, theoretically he could keep this sword. It would be pretty tough to do, if it's even possible. It may just turn out to be a lousy sword for Ezio, or it might be something better. Or more likely, it wouldn't be flagged as 'keepable'. But I'm curious nonetheless.

The first few missions are standard fare. I like the idea of having a group of guards as your allies. They suck, sure, but at least you get Brutes and Seekers fighting for you. It's nice to see the enemy Seekers already wielding a busted halberd by the time you turn your attention on them. Your Seekers and Brutes can and will knock down enemies, so you can easily stab them while they're on the ground. I've noticed that Caterina likes to run around knocking people down as well. I've been a victim several times. (I wouldn't want to play football against her.) It's nice when she knocks guys down for you to easily finish off.

While not a necessity by any means, smoke bombs go a long way in these battle missions. If one of your allies' health gets low (I'm talking about you, Caterina!), just throw a smoke bomb and whip out the double hidden blades and clear the vicinity. It's nice to see a use for smoke bombs.

Did anybody see the significance of the free ammo in the third mission? There are two cabinets that if you approach them they refill Ezio's bullet supply. However, they are each only single-use and will be used up even if his ammo supply is full. The only place I found that I could even use the pistol was up on the towers, and trying to go back down to refill was dangerous (due to Kamekaze Caterina getting herself killed, as usual). The towers were too high to get an angle to shoot guards from the courtyard, so I really don't know what's up with those cabinets and the pistol instructions popping up on the screen.

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Maybe they wanted people to think that they actually needed to use the pistol in this mission. Otherwise, I'm just as confused as you are about the ammo cabinets.

For special occasions...

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Did you find any keys in the cabinets as well? Laughing out loud

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Nothing regarding keys in the entire Sequence.

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Ack! Should have known! Spoilers! Not reading! Laughing out loud

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I thought that while it was nice to have story in Forli, Sequence 12 was quite bad overall because I just didn't give a crap. Machiavelli does absolutely nothing over the sequence, one of the Orsi brothers has *one* line of dialogue, beyond the white space [and that one line of dialogue is "Ludovico!"], and the other brother and Caterina don't fare much better. In my opinion, that all could have been solved with the addition of one mission.

Caterina draws attention to the fact that she hired the Orsi to kill her husband, Girolamo Riario. Why not hire Ezio, an Assassin [usually the best man to assassinate someone]? The new Sequence 12 would start off with a bang - you and the Orsi brothers infiltrate the Rocca Di Ravaldino [or it could be an indoor Assassin Tomb-esque mission in the Palazzo Comunale] and kill Girolamo together. You would get to know the Orsi brothers [think of this mission like the museum mission in Uncharted 2], you would get an good assassination in this memory block [Sorry, but Checco and "Ludovico!" are pathetic as is], and most importantly you might want to know what happens next. After the assassination, you and the Orsi would part ways, and the second mission would start off with a cutscene that indicates the passage of time.

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hewkii9 wrote:
Caterina draws attention to the fact that she hired the Orsi to kill her husband, Girolamo Riario. Why not hire Ezio, an Assassin .

MMMMM, but, during the last assassination mission for Lorenzo in Forli, you kill Girolamo, who was supposed to be the person next to the Seeker that where guarding the spy.

JoeyFogey wrote:
ROB_88 wrote:
[On the meaning of BAMF]i figured it was something similar to a MILF

Babes Await My..............Flap-a-doodle Laughing out loud

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^

Nice catch, I was actually about to make that point.

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Yes, but since it's now Caterina who ordered him dead, not Lorenzo, and she says she hired the Orsi, that's been retconned.

EDIT: I just replayed the last Forli assassination contract, and it doesn't say that Girolamo Riario himself is guarding the spy - it says that an agent of his is. So you don't get to kill him.

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i was a bit annoyed that ezio got stabbed in the gut - again. i know that this one came first in the story, but its the second time we've seen it. what bugged me most was that ezio just winces - as if he got indigestion - instead of reacting the way an actual person would. he looks down as if to say "hey someone left his knife in my intestines... oh wait... that cant be good."

theres always something to nitpick, but this one bothers me since i have to watch that cutscene each time i replay. that said, im having fun with checcomate assassinations. i'll have a variety pack out soon.

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IanXO4 wrote:
what bugged me most was that ezio just winces - as if he got indigestion - instead of reacting the way an actual person would.

How would an actual person react?

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an actual person would react instantly when a knife gets jabbed into their gut. jumping back and grunting would be an example of a natural reaction.

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Probably like this:

(around 1:30 of the vid)

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154290/

EDIT: Damn it Ian! You posted just before I did!

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IanXO4 wrote:
an actual person would react instantly when a knife gets jabbed into their gut. jumping back and grunting would be an example of a natural reaction.

That is definitely not always the case. There are many factors to consider. Adrenaline is an important factor, as it has a strong pain-masking effect. People pumped up on adrenaline will often not notice a wound immediately.

There's also shock factor, which causes a sort of neurological 'denial'. A clean cut will often not be felt immediately. Have you ever had a smooth deep slice into a finger or limb? I have, and I didn't even realize what happened until I saw all the blood coming out. It's scarier when you don't feel the pain right away and self-assess a serious wound visually.

Besides, how is his reaction really different from the thousands of hidden blade stabbing victims throughout the game? Smile They seem to react in a pretty similar manner, more surprised than anything and then they just slump over after a moment.

That said, it's amazing that he survived the stabbings at all. Even today, being stabbed in the gut is a pretty serious thing. Back then when surgical skills were virtually non-existent, I don't see how he wouldn't have bled to death internally. Especially when he was bleeding out in the field there for who knows how long. Ezio must be immortal. Big smile

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Asaic wrote:
Ezio must be immortal. Big smile

Or pre-destined to be a "chosen one" by Godlike beings. Mabye he is unkillable until he has had the chance to deliver the message to Desmond?

Thanks to SBIzokronus for the fantastic sig!

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joecool280 wrote:
Or pre-destined to be a "chosen one" by Godlike beings. Mabye he is unkillable until he has had the chance to deliver the message to Desmond?

That would imply supernatural elements, which I'm not a fan of. I just chaulk it up to "overly convenient plot development". Wink

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If anyone in the game is immortal it's Dante. He's actually designed to be immortal until we finally get a clean opportunity to plunge a blade clean into his neck.

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Just finished sequence 12 in about 45 minutes. Let me just say it was certainly worth $4 FLAE's eye roll

The assassinations were far too easy, and Ludovico's was basically the "Go Toward the Light" assassination contract with a screaming annoying child at the top as your reward.

That being said, my experience was the complete opposite of Asaics. For one, Catarina killed people left and right, and he health never dropped below 3 blocks. I wish I could say the same for Machiavelli. Despite having a Schianova (aka the best sword in the game minus Altaïr's) he managed to almost get killed twice which resulted in me having to break from my battle plan and go save him before he bled out.

In regards to Checco, it wasn't even a challenge. If you just go up on the building right in front of him he's a sitting duck. Even though I had the air-to-assassinate right there, I decided to test his supposedly revered unarmed combat. The results were extremely disappointing. I found that the guards battling the first monk in the final mission were more of a challenge than Checco. Checco has fast and strong strikes, but his weakness lies in his defenses. He has trouble recovering from both counters and punches to the side, and in the end I just quickstepped behind him and broke his neck. BORGIA was more of a challenge than Checco was, and that's saying something.

While this was a nice idea of DLC, and it was certainly appropriately priced, I still think that it was a drag. Nothing terribly exciting, nothing terribly intense, I actually got a sense of repetitiveness that I thought AC2 had triumphed. I have very very VERY high hopes for Bonfires of the Versatiles, and pray it will be a much better DLC than Battle of Florï.

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my favorite missions in ac1 were the chases, but not because i like chasing. the target would flee along a fixed set of routes to the a guard tower... typically passing different architecture, which gives many options on how to kill him. sunday stroll and shadow above were 2 of my favorite assassinations in ac1, and both were chases.

when i heard that ac2 would use different AI for chases - an adaptive AI that adjusts the flight path dynamically based on the situation - i was somewhat disappointed since it meant that there would be less opportunity to design interesting assassinations. until now. the checco assassination mission was a pleasant surprise, as ubi used the "old school" AI of fleeing along a fixed path. this mission is among my favorites of the game. the tripwire, 60-m sniper, long range air assassination from haystack, air assassination from a viewpoint, high profile dismount assassination, blitz with blended fastwalk - these are all unprecedented techniques for me to use on a main target. i thoroughly enjoyed exploring the checco mission. definitely worth $4.

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Fly Like an Eagle wrote:
That being said, my experience was the complete opposite of Asaics. For one, Catarina killed people left and right, and he health never dropped below 3 blocks. I wish I could say the same for Machiavelli. Despite having a Schianova (aka the best sword in the game minus Altaïr's) he managed to almost get killed twice which resulted in me having to break from my battle plan and go save him before he bled out.

Yep, that's the opposite of what I experienced. I've played through Sequence 12 five times and every single time Machiavelli was a beast. He was kicking ass and taking names. The only aspect outdone by Caterina was her ambition, as she thought she could take on the world. Machiavelli was taking out Brutes and Seekers without much effort. He was doing more damage to them with his sword than I was with the Sword of Altair.

I can specifically recall four instances where Caterina got herself killed, and there may have been one or two others I'm not remembering. Once she actually fell backward into the water at the end of the bridge to the stronghold. Maybe she tripped over her skirt. FLAE's eye roll I have yet to see Machiavelli die in combat, and the only time he fell into water was the time that I knocked him in myself. Big smile

Fly Like an Eagle wrote:
In regards to Checco, it wasn't even a challenge. BORGIA was more of a challenge than Checco was, and that's saying something.

This is definitely different from my experiences.

Borgia is pretty easy. Just sidestep and combo, sidestep and combo, ad infinitum. He gives plenty of time for you to position yourself between his attacks and he choreographs enough for you to easily dodge. If he actually does hit you, he only follows up with a couple hits and then you can hit him back. The only pain with Borgia is that he has tons of hit points and the fight takes forever. I hate doing this fight because of the length of it. Bo-ring!

Checco, on the other hand, is definitely a more offensive fighter. He attacks more frequently and his combos are brutal. He does the full five-hit combo and immediately follows up with another. If you are hit by one of his combos, after you're finished reeling he'll be on you with another if you don't hold block. If you try to attack him first at this point, his hit is already coming in before your daze wears off and he'll beat you to the punch. He'll combo you over and over; you need to play a bit of defense to create an opening, otherwise he'll keep you on the ropes. You definitely don't need to do this with Borgia. If Borgia gets some hits in on you, you can shake it off and attack him back. That strategy doesn't work against Checco.

Checco's also pretty mean with a blade. He'll put up as much of a fight as any of the advanced AI. He seems to be right up there with Sequence 11 Borgia.

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IanXO4 wrote:
i thoroughly enjoyed exploring the checco mission. definitely worth $4.

I totally agree. I killed Checco a completely different way every time I played through Sequence 12.

His brother? Man, what a disappointment.

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One of the most overlooked aspects of the Borgia fight is that because he's an old, obese man by the time we get to him in the Vatican, he can be grabbed at any time during the fight. So what you can do is grab, triple combo, pick up, triple combo, pick up, triple combo, etc. as many times as you need to. He simply can't block it, and it's actually pretty funny to watch. I think he can also be grabbed at any time while he is wielding the staff.

Okay, maybe I went a little overboard with my criticism of Checco. Upon playing over his assassination a few more times I find that it's dynamics are excellent. That still doesn't make him a great fist-fighter, though. However, Asaic, you were right in that he's extremely powerful with a sword. He almost managed to kill me once!

After playing through again I'm still extremely puzzled with your analysis of Caterina. You claim she is a pain in the ass, while she's my best ally during the sequence. Whenever I examine her fighting I notice that even though she is slow to recover, if she deflects the attack she'll pounce and unleash upon the target, often killing them without having to launch a second flurry of attacks. She's a lot more fierce than Machiavelli is, who I've noticed doesn't often try to defend himself. He's all offense, leaving him open to attacks from other enemies when he's engaged with someone else. Machiavelli also has a terrible presence of mind during battle. He managed to fall off of the Citadel Tower's small walling gap into the water TWICE, causing me to have to start the battle over.

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Every time for me, Caterina is leading the way. She's the first into the fray and thus gets the most initial attention. Machiavelli is always right behind her, but instead of running into the middle of each area and becoming immediately surrounded, Caterina takes that role and Machiavelli begins fighting from a little further back because he's not as far along as she is when his AI detects enemies to fight. As a result, he's a little further back when the fighting begins and he lays waste to them as he makes his way in. He's not fast, but he takes out everything with ease and slices his way toward the center of the battle.

Caterina, on the other hand, is in the thick of it and is being attacked from all sides. And she likes to keep on the move, knocking guys down like a crazed football/rugby player. Where Machiavelli will hold position and fight until they're dead and then move in further and fight the next nearest foe, Caterina will change targets before finishing off most enemies.

Like I mentioned, she gets top points for ambition. But she gets in way over her head, especially if Ezio closes in. I noticed that if I approach her, she'll quickly take off in search of more fresh meat, assuming I'll finish off all the guards that were around her before I arrived at her location. I guess she doesn't like to share the glory. The problem is, the guards that were attacking her tend to follow her, so she'll quickly have more on her than she can handle and will go down very quickly.

She seems to have pretty terrible defense too. I see her get hit often. This is usually due to the fact that she has too many opponents attacking her and she just can't keep up. Every time she goes to make an attack, another guard is putting his attack in and she gets his from the side or behind. Machiavelli never gets in over his head, and he sticks with and kills his targets, unlike A.D.D. Caterina.

And needless to say, Caterina's guards are pretty useless. They're the last to arrive and they're not very tough. They're very slow to attack, too, with lots of wasted time standing face to face with an enemy and neither of them attacking. They should be protecting Caterina, but they're often approaching last, thus fighting stragglers near Machiavelli while Caterina is up ahead knocking people down and racing around in a blood-thirsty hyperactive rage. I bet she has a smile on her face the entire time. Insane woman.

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Fly Like an Eagle wrote:
So what you can do is grab, triple combo, pick up, triple combo, pick up, triple combo, etc. as many times as you need to.

Grab, triple, curb stomp, you meant Party

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Grab, triple, double curb stomp, if i recall correctly Party

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IanXO4 wrote:
what bugged me most was that ezio just winces - as if he got indigestion - instead of reacting the way an actual person would. he looks down as if to say "hey someone left his knife in my intestines... oh wait... that cant be good."

yeah, this bothered me as well. everytime i see that cutscene, i try to imagine at what point he could have stabbed Ezio. i know it couldn't have been when he was attacked and taken to the ground or when they're in the middle of talking. so that leaves it to be when Ezio shoves it in his adam's apple (hee hee, "Adam's Apple;" get it AC fans?) since Ezio could have been focusing more on his elimination than anything happening to him. also, that whole idea brought up before about adrenaline and the body's natural "denial" of pain as soon as it happens. these are all variables that make sense, but seeing it happen just seems silly. what i want to know is: how did he get back to 100% when he got stabbed by Borgia at the Vatican? please answer that to me, someone!

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what bugs me about this cutscene is that it doesnt feel like ubi really thought it through. when i played back my recording of this cutscene, i see ezio wince before i hear the blade go in. if that was ubi's intent, then ezio was wincing at the fact that he sees checco preparing to stab him. if ubi's intent was that ezio winces at a pain due to the blade going in, then
1) sound effects are off, and
2) ezio is dumb as bricks to not react more quickly to being stabbed, or he lacks peripheral vision.

any which way, this cutscene is annoying. maybe its just because of the shear number of times ive killed checco and had to watch this cutscene.

i read somewhere else a nice hypothesis on the borgia stabbing. basically the thought is that ezio used the apple to create a fake copy of the apple and the illusion that he was stabbed. borgia takes the fake apple and goes down the steps. ezio follows borgia, beat him up, and then enters the vault. the fake apple is still on the staff when ezio enters the vault. when ezio enters, minerva asks ezio to present the apple, which he pulls out to show her.

i like this interpretation, but i think its more likely that ubi just didnt think it through.

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IanXO4 wrote:

i like this interpretation, but i think its more likely that ubi just didnt think it through.

Probably since most of the Ubi staff don't think a lot of things through before they make them public *cough* replay *cough*

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A quick question:
When you get behind an enemy and attack while locked on, it's an insta-kill with a cool looking animation. You can grab Rodrigo Borgia in the final Animus boss fight. After you throw him on the ground, when you're behind him and he gets up, can you do something like that?

I'm replaying the game for the 5th time, and I'm messing with one of my rules for Assassin's Creed:

"The first rule of Assassin's Creed... is you have to climb everything in Assassin's Creed."
Climbing on the inside of all the tombs is ridiculous fun, and - inspired by the videos by Jack Reacher - I started to find most of the secrets inside the tombs for myself.

Feels like a Prince of Persia game ^_^