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Notoriety System

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First of all, apologies to Calvar for hijacking your thread system like this. I intend this to be the same kind of topic. I hope you don't mind. Wink

Introduction
So, notoriety. To be honest, the notoriety system in ACII and AC:B was... bad, yeah. You could high-profile kill a guard on a tower where no-one could see you and gain more notoriety than killing him low-profile. Hiding bodies had no effect whatsoever, blood just disappeared from your clothes and it was way to easy to reduce your notoriety, not to mention the capes which kept it at zero.

Seen/unseen
First of all, addressing my main complaint with ACII's notoriety system. Killing someone where nobody can see you should not raise your notoriety as much as killing a guard where people can see you. A very basic distinction would be between three types: high-profile seen, low-profile seen and unseen. By 'seen', I mean that there are people around to witness the action. Not just guards, any type of people. This is pretty easy to implement, as every character in the crowd has to be modelled and simply attaching a 'seen'-attribute to the player as soon as he comes in an area with people should take little effort. It's also pretty simple to have 'seen' take a certain value, based on the number of people watching. Due to the speed of processors these days, they should be able to easily handle these few extra operations. If that sounded a bit technical, all you need to know is that a 'seen' attribute is easily to implement and even can have several levels in a simple way.
Killing someone in whatever way unseen will raise your notoriety less than killing someone in whatever way seen. Killing unseen allows you to get away, and it'll naturally take more time for the body to be found, because there aren't any people around. Finding a body later on has less of an impact than someone just suddenly dropping down next to you, dead. Even more notorious would be high-profile killing, since this event is immediately linked to you. The others take time for the to be linked to you, and this will go faster and faster as you kill more people, which brings me to my next point.

Exponentiality (I hope I spelled that correctly Tongue)
In my eyes, notoriety should be exponential[/b]. What I mean by this is that as your notoriety goes up, it goes up [i]faster, making it harder to reduce it. This makes sense because the more people are aware of you, the easier they will link any event to you. Like my 'seen/unseen'-suggestion, it's also easy to implement. All that has to be done, is adding the current notoriety into the formula for adding notoriety. If that was too technical, same principle as 'seen/unseen' applies here: it's easy to implement.
While I'm at it, I'll also address my second most major complaint: the levels of the notoriety system. There's about twelve, measured in picking pockets, which gain the minimal amount of notoriety. I think it should take more than twelve pockets picked for you to become fully notorious. Once again, easy to implement.

Hot zones
Basically, a hot zone is a zone where your notoriety goes up higher according to your actions. This might be sensitive locations, like a carefully guarded building, or crowded areas, although an implementation of the seen/unseen system with levels seems better to me in the last case. If only two people witness an action you perform, you won't become as notorious because it's only two people being able to tell others about your actions. On the other hand, if you do something while many people watch you, rumour will spread very, very fast. I'm sure most people could come up with some numbers of people for levels of this system, so I shall leave that out.
In any case, back to the hot zones. We kind of have this already in the form of forbidden areas. However, this does not have an effect on the notoriety. While at it, it may be a nice idea to implement several 'levels' of this notoriety. Again, this makes sense because some areas aren't as sensitive as others. Again, this is pretty easy to implement because adding a value is all it takes (instead of a simple 'true' or 'false').

Positive and negative actions
Whatever you may think, this is not a moral choice system. What I'd like to see with positive and negative actions is that they both raise your notoriety. I mean, if you donate a billion euros to the Red Cross, you're bound to attract attention, aren't you, even though the deed will be well liked by many. In the same manner, positive actions in the game (throwing money comes to mind) will raise your notoriety as well as negative actions (killing people).
Maybe it would be a good idea to implement different crowd reactions based upon the type of action. This would've to be managed seperately, because guards are hostile, it doesn't matter if your actions were good or bad. The reason I'm a bit hesitant on this is, again, a bit technical. Implementing this would mean having two seperate systems for notoriety, which seems a little bit odd. Also, how is the crowd able to identify you? I mean, most of them won't have seen you, so how would they know it was you? The whole point of the Assassin's Creed games is to be one with the crowd after all.

Assassination aftermath
Remember in AC1, after you killed a target, the whole city was up against you, the guards were alert and you had to be careful in order to get back to the bureau safely, then lay low for a while? (Yeah, too long a sentence, I know.) You can't say you didn't love that aspect of the game, compared to ACII and AC:B, where all you have to do is get out of the area and hide for ten seconds? Or worse, the assassination of the Baron de Valois, where you didn't even have to escape, but the mission just ended?
Bringing back the alarm bells would be a great improvement. The code's already there. However, what would be even more awesome, in my eyes, is a bell runner. After an assassination, a guard runs towards the alarm bells, to get them ringing. Your job is to catch him and kill him before he can make it. (Feel free to replace 'he' with 'she' and him' with 'her' Smile) This, naturally, would involve a difficult course, twisting and turning so you can't just shoot the target (what was done in the tombs, disabling certain weapons, was just a quick way out). If you catch him, the bells won't sound and you'll be able to make your way to cover in a relatively short time. Word of mouth travels fast, you know. Wink
Of course this would take a lot of game designing (the course) and more work overall than the other suggestions. Furthermore, the alarm bells beginning to sound as soon as you've killed a target is very much justifiable. I just think a bell runner would be more fun. A second option would be to implement this on a few targets, but not all, which also would add variety.

Hiding bodies and bloody clothes
I can be short on hiding bodies. Hiding a body takes more time for it to be found, making escape very much possible and making the event even less likely to be linked to you. Of course, you have to be unseen while hiding a body as well. Implementation is a bit thougher, so this suggestion doesn't have top priority. It's also a more minor change, but it would be nice to properly do something with the hiding bodies-mechanic for once.
Bloody clothes is also a more minor addition. Notice how sometimes the blood just spurts out of bodies, yet Altair's/Ezio's/Desmond's suit is always clean? There's blood on it for a short period, then it just disappears. What I'd like to see is being noticed faster when your clothes are bloody. Again, there can also be several levels of 'bloody', but this seems a little bit pointless. People will either notice it or not. Being noticed would've to be determined by the actions you have performed. A low-profile kill ought to leave little blood (not noticed), while entering a fight would leave a lot of blood (noticed). Getting rid of this blood could be done via washing clothes at fountains or rivers, going to an ally's house to change clothes, or go to a secluded spot to change them. I'm a bit opposed to washing, because blood doesn't wash out easily. Also, changing in a secluded spot should have limited uses, like one. You can't carry an infinite amount of clothing sets.

Conclusion
This is the conlusion of my post. My congratulations if you actually got through all that. Integrating these suggestions would make for a notoriety system with actual depth and realism, while still being pretty easy to implement Going technical again, a formula for calculating the added notoriety might look as follows:
Added Notoriety = Action type * Area type * Seen level * Body Hidden * Old Notoriety * Some Factor
As long as only multiplication and/or addition are used (and their inverses, division and substraction, of course), there's only need for one factor to regulate the amount of notoriety. This would make for very easy tweaking of the system, which greatly reduces the time it takes to actually implement it.
Note that I didn't include blood or the ringing bells in the formula for notoriety. I did this because they are merely a crowd-mechanics and aren't related to the level of notoriety that is added. They more or less belong in the Guard AI and crowds-topic, but that's very deeply intertwined with notoriety in my head.
In any case, do mind that for this system to work, more levels of notoriety are needed. I also suggest tweaking the action type more, so that pickpocketing gains a minimal amount of notoriety. Maybe pickpocketing a lot of people would gain more notoriety? "Pickpocketing notoriety" would also be exponential, so to speak. I can talk about that some more, but I haven't thought about it yet and I've written enough. What do you think about this and my other suggestions?

The nitty-gritty, legal stuff
Disclaimer: As poster, I have copyright on these ideas. However, I have gained some of these insights during discussion with other people and their suggestions may or may not have made their way into this post. I had no intention to steal their ideas for my own use, it only seemed logical that they wished for their ideas to be implemented in the game and, as such, to be implemented in other suggestions. For this post, I concede any rights on the ideas expressed therein to the creators of the Assassin's Creed franchise, currently Ubisoft, who are free to do with them as they please.

The reason for the disclaimer is simple: Gabe has mentioned that they aren't allowed to take player suggestions because it is something of a legal issue. I hope to have circumvented this legal issue by writing this.

P.S. There was a forum thread on the official forums on this. It was quite good, so here's the link.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/9071099578

_________________

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"Well, neither is drinking liquor, but I'm drawn to its dangers all the same."

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I really like your ideas. It makes sense that rumors would circulate among the populace and the guards, therefore they are more likely to recognize you. I have heard many complaints about there not being an Unseen condition, and you are bound to be noticed doing something suspicious more in some areas than others.

With this idea of notoriety being rumors, they could keep the Herald bribery to lower it; however it would definitely need tweaking.

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ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Bloody clothes is also a more minor addition. Notice how sometimes the blood just spurts out of bodies, yet Altair's/Ezio's/Desmond's suit is always clean? There's blood on it for a short period, then it just disappears. What I'd like to see is being noticed faster when your clothes are bloody.

I have always loved the MGS series for how they make the player responsible for being a complete idiot iwhen they decide throw stealth out the window. I remember that in MGS3 there is a segment where you are to be disguised as a scientist (or at least supposed to, Jack?). If you killed a guard or got hurt by one, your clothes would get stained, which adds that little sense of realism that is what we aim for.
If Konami pulled this off with the PS2 ( and apparently the 3DS in the future), why can't we do it with the new generation.

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I am beyond ok that someone has finally made another topic! I've been feeling really tired now that I no longer have to force myself to do stuff over the christmas break, so I probably won't be that active. I love your idea, if the notoriety system had this much depth and nuance, it would be amazing!

the posts a bit guy

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ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
First of all, apologies to Calvar for hijacking your thread system like this. I intend this to be the same kind of topic. I hope you don't mind. Wink

The previous topic (social stealth, etc) included notoriety and I posted my ideas in that thread. No point in me repeating them here.

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Exponentiality

I like this idea. It adds a level of challenge to those who want it and can be avoided by those who don't by being a little more proactive when it comes to reducing notoriety. It also adds a factor of realism.

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Assassination aftermath

I can't say I'm fond of the bell runner idea, but it's a unique idea.

I just figure that the bells aren't nearby and would be set off via visual signal to a guy in a lookout site rather than somebody physically moving from the crime scene all the way to a guard barracks and starting them off himself. But who knows? Smile

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Disclaimer: As poster, I have copyright on these ideas. However, I have gained some of these insights during discussion with other people and their suggestions may or may not have made their way into this post. I had no intention to steal their ideas for my own use, it only seemed logical that they wished for their ideas to be implemented in the game and, as such, to be implemented in other suggestions. For this post, I concede any rights on the ideas expressed therein to the creators of the Assassin's Creed franchise, currently Ubisoft, who are free to do with them as they please.

The reason for the disclaimer is simple: Gabe has mentioned that they aren't allowed to take player suggestions because it is something of a legal issue. I hope to have circumvented this legal issue by writing this.

Don't worry about legal stuff, that's just PR crap. If that were true, then Ubisoft would owe me a ton of money for the handful of ideas I had for AC2 that ended up appearing in the game (plus everyone else who came up with the same ideas on their own and posted them somewhere). Big smile

It would also serve a major issue in that most possible ideas would have been written up somewhere by somebody prior to the game's release, meaning there would really be no ideas left over for them to use at all.

Don't worry, there are no legal issues. Smile

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I like your ideas about the different crowd reactions, Asaic. I think reactions by people are currently regulated by the people themselves, in a way. It's a bit complicated, but to display a person in the game and make it solid and all that, you have to make an 'instance' of a person. A bit like how we're all different, but still are all humans. Not sure if that makes sense. In any case, you have a seperate piece of code that controls how the person walks, how he/she reacts and all that. Again, all very technical, but what matters is that it's easy to implement what I'm going to suggest now.
Every person could have a certain index that describes how aware they are of 'the assassin' and what they think of them. This would be randomly generated. It's even possible to have a group of people have the same kind of 'awareness', I think. This would tie in nicely with the crowd archetypes idea from the other thread. This awareness determines their reaction, and in this way it's possible to have people in crowds react differently. Would be a nice thing to have, but this is again, something of an extra and not really necessary in my eyes.

Well, on the bell runner idea, I wasn't imagining the bell runner running all the way to the bells, but rather to a lookout post to warn the guards.

_________________

"Betraying the Assassins is never good for one's health."
"Well, neither is drinking liquor, but I'm drawn to its dangers all the same."

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ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
I like your ideas about the different crowd reactions, Asaic. I think reactions by people are currently regulated by the people themselves, in a way. It's a bit complicated, but to display a person in the game and make it solid and all that, you have to make an 'instance' of a person. A bit like how we're all different, but still are all humans. Not sure if that makes sense. In any case, you have a seperate piece of code that controls how the person walks, how he/she reacts and all that. Again, all very technical, but what matters is that it's easy to implement what I'm going to suggest now.

All of this code already exists anyway. Every randomly generated NPC already has various flags that are preset and can be changed based on things they 'witness'. They might make a comment, they might drop their box and look surprised, they might walk up and gather around with the others, or they might run away screaming. There's already a lot of different behaviors for the NPC's and a single NPC can go through multiple different actions based on a series of events around them. So the code is already there. They could simply add a couple more flags that point to additional simplistic AI routines.

ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Well, on the bell runner idea, I wasn't imagining the bell runner running all the way to the bells, but rather to a lookout post to warn the guards.

That's not really any different, though. It doesn't matter if the guy himself rings the bell or if he just tells somebody else to. It just seems like they would have had a more efficient visual signal system rather than having to go to all the trouble of running to the nearest post to tell someone or ring it yourself. That would take way too long and by then it's really too late to be ringing it at all.

But that's just my view on it.

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I think you misunderstood. What I'm envisioning is something like, say, the assassination of William of Montferrat. The moment you kill him, a guard notices and flees from the fight to go to the bell or post. A chase occurs within the fortress to catch him.

_________________

"Betraying the Assassins is never good for one's health."
"Well, neither is drinking liquor, but I'm drawn to its dangers all the same."

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...
I.. I like.. everything.. yeah..
I like everything O_O
That's pretty much it!

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james89 wrote:
ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Bloody clothes is also a more minor addition. Notice how sometimes the blood just spurts out of bodies, yet Altair's/Ezio's/Desmond's suit is always clean? There's blood on it for a short period, then it just disappears. What I'd like to see is being noticed faster when your clothes are bloody.

I have always loved the MGS series for how they make the player responsible for being a complete idiot iwhen they decide throw stealth out the window. I remember that in MGS3 there is a segment where you are to be disguised as a scientist (or at least supposed to, Jack?). If you killed a guard or got hurt by one, your clothes would get stained, which adds that little sense of realism that is what we aim for.
If Konami pulled this off with the PS2 ( and apparently the 3DS in the future), why can't we do it with the new generation.

haha so someone from here does watch my vids! Yeah I decided to beat that area without a disguise or interacting with anyone as well. However I had to use it on the last guard

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ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
I think you misunderstood. What I'm envisioning is something like, say, the assassination of William of Montferrat. The moment you kill him, a guard notices and flees from the fight to go to the bell or post. A chase occurs within the fortress to catch him.

No, that's exactly as I envisioned it. Smile

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Then it seems I'm missing how a visual signal can be used within the walls of the fortress. I mean, there's lot's of buildings in between.

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"Well, neither is drinking liquor, but I'm drawn to its dangers all the same."

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ThreeLetterSyndrom wrote:
Then it seems I'm missing how a visual signal can be used within the walls of the fortress. I mean, there's lot's of buildings in between.

Signals to guys in lookout towers, firing a flaming arrow into the air, etc. There were plenty of ways humans handled these things over the centuries before technology came into play.

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Plain calling would work as well, if the distance that's short. Tongue
As I said before, it would be purely a gameplay element added for fun. Wink

_________________

"Betraying the Assassins is never good for one's health."
"Well, neither is drinking liquor, but I'm drawn to its dangers all the same."