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Elite guards in Revelations?

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Remember how in Brotherhood, they introduced to us the Papal Guard? How it was suppose to be the Borgia's elite guards who were advanced in combat and free-running? Well they werent. They were just an Agile with a gun and a sword. The concept was good, it didn't turn out well.

I think in Revelations, they should bring back the idea, but rename it, obviously Papal wouldn't fit. Perhaps Janissary Elite or something,

Anyway, I think this Elite guard should have Free-Running capability, decent armor (can't free-run in heavy armor, but that hasn't stopped Ezio), a gun perhaps, and maybe some added things like resistance, when a smoke bomb is down, they're only effected for 1 or 2 seconds. Or 2 kinds of Elite Guards? A combat based one and a parkour based one.

The combat based one could be heavily armored like a Brute, carry a gun and a sword, and resist Smoke bombs.

The parkour-based one could wear lighter armor, but more than that of an Agile, cary a gun and a dagger, and chases Ezio to the ends of the earth. His combat will be based on Dodging like the Agile.

Most importantly, aren't Elite Guards suppose to be better than regular guards? A counter-attack from the hidden blade takes them out easily. Remember in Brotherhood, when you countered with the Hidden Blade against Cesare or a Tower Captain, he would dodge the attack. I think it should be the same for Elite Guards, just they have less HP. It would take at least 15 hidden-blade counters to kill a Tower Captain, it could take 3 to kill an Elite Guard. I think that's reasonable and makes the game feel more of a challenge.

Also...since Ezio has recently reached level 50 and upgraded his Eagle Vision to Eagle Sense (bad joke ftw) I think Elite Guards should be given smoke bombs, like Ezio's in Brotherhood and Ac2. Just not those strong smoke bombs like in Revelations. What they could do is, stop Recruits, factions, whatever, in their tracks, and make it harder for Ezio (the player) to see. Well that forces you to use your abilities to survival. When an elite guard throws down a smoke bomb, turn on Eagle Sense to avoid being attacked from behind or over-whelmed.

In Brotherhood, the only time I died was from jumping from something to high. Guards might have well been dummies.

In Ac2, I had trouble with guards when there was ALOT, because there was no execution. Which usually lead to me running,

in Ac1, guards would give me trouble no matter the amount. It felt more like survival and not running around screaming "DIE"

I like how roof guards will turn around if you sprint at them, it makes sense. But in Ac2 and Brotherhood, an archer will stare at you and let you stab his stomach. In Ac1, if you attempted to low-profile assassinate a guard face-to-face, you got pushed away. In Brotherhood, you could have already entered combat with an archer, you simply run up, WHILE HES IN COMBAT STANCE, and stabby him, I never liked that.

All in all, Assassin's Creed guards need a lot of tweaking.

These were just ideas I was thinking of while playing some Brotherhood MP. I still do enjoy that.

Nothing special, I just thought I would share it with the community, as it seemed important to me.

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You're quite right about that on some aspects. The Papal Guards were a compete joke. Though they were as vicious as Brutes, nimble as Agiles, and immune to the effects of smoke bomb in combat, they can quickly be defeated by a kill streak or a hidden blade counter.

I'm not sure whether Ubisoft should split the Janissary Elite into 2 categories. That would complicate things and confuse the players. They're so many variations of guards that keeping track of them is rather hard. Rather, they should just combine the 2 elite guards you just described into one...like they already did so with the Papal Guards.

I do agree with you on making certain guards harder to slain (Borgia captains), and that aspect should be integrated into the story. I also think that there should be more Elite Guards roaming around (in ACB, only 4 Papal Guards can be seen outside the story). However, that could affect the pacing of the gameplay.

I like your idea of guards using smoke bombs on you and your recruits. However, I believe that they should be reserved exclusively for the Elite Guards that populate the entire city of Constantinople (around famous landmarks).

As for the assassinating guards in combat while they're in combat stance, that depends on the type of guards. If its an archer, you can assassinate him easily in open combat. If it's a regular guard, seeker, agile, brute, or elite, they will block you. Besides, one can just wall run and bounce back to assassinate them.

All in all, the AI should be tweaked a bit!

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It is kind of sad that the enemy AI is getting dumber. Like I've said before, I hope these styles of gameplay are unique to each ancestor (difficult guards in AC1, easy guards in AC2-ACR, possibly guards that learn your strategies throughout the game in AC3 and forces the player to constantly change it up).

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I've noticed the rooftop guards in Brotherood are extremely easy to take out. You should, as you say, wallbounce.

And the point I was trying to make that assassinating in open combat, is the fact archers shouldnt stand there a let you stab them. Like in the first game they would block you. In Brotherhood they're just like "Get off of here! Don't come closer! You're still coming closer! Don't stab me! *dies*"

Assassins Creed, for me, has become more about how you can get to your target quick enough, rather than how you can do it without drawing attention to yourself. If you do draw attention in Brotherhood, you can just mow down the guards, Ezio is a one man army.

With the addition of Elites, drawing attention to yourself can have more consequences.

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I want to feel like Ezio after the carriage scene in ACR in all missions requiring stealth. That's just me. I love challenge.

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Every1 loves stealth in AC. My hopes for this game were good when I saw Ezio sneaking through the city, then at the end he goes bomb crazy so I still don't know what to expecct lol

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i like the bombs because it´s some thing new and also with the stealth i like it both ways some epic over the top battles and also stealth and it seems that in acr you can do it both

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Yes epic battles are nice, but the entirety of Brotherhood was battles lol

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The guards keep getting dumber, but the mission structures keep getting better and more difficult. Many complain about the addition of 100% synchronization, but I believe that it adds a level of depth in ACB. Not only does it provide a reason to try different tactics, but it also gives insight on how Ezio preformed his missions.

Oh, but the most important aspect of all is that it provides a challenge. And some of these are getting really hard. I mean, unable to kill guards AND not being spot is rather tough. My PS3 controller has bore the brunt of my anger many times when playing ACB.

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I don't have a problem with the 100% synchronization. I actually love that idea. It adds replay value. Problem is, some of us attempt challenges like these for ourselves, not because the game asks us to. But it's still not a bad thing. Making the guards easier to eliminate makes me feel as if I'm above the game. Like it's only for kids ages 8-15 with a story none of those players will even care about because of its "RUN-N-STAB" multiplayer. It's almost scary how different it's become since the original concept.

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first i hated the 100 sync but now i love it i did the one mission in senescence 8 to go stealthy in castel san angelo about 40 without exaggeration

but i must say i hate the guards the fast ones i hate them sooo much Evil

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*pops in* If the guards are dumber, why can I stab someone with a hidden blade directly in front of a guard in AC1 and he won't notice till the body drops?

Guards are not getting dumber, their intelligence is just not being increased at an adequate level for the detection, escape, and combat system currently present in Brotherhood.

The combat system itself is fine, but as this topic says elite guards need to step it up a notch, and even normals should attack way more, and faster. But the most important thing is something really simple. Numbers must be bumped up, and down. detection time should be bumped down. Escape while out of LOS time, bumped up. Damage percentage from all guards: bumped up. LOS distance: bumped up. Attack rate: bumped up.

Just a few adjustments of data and Brotherhood as is is almost perfect.

*pops out*

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
If the guards are dumber, why can I stab someone with a hidden blade directly in front of a guard in AC1 and he won't notice till the body drops?

What game did you play?

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
*pops in* If the guards are dumber, why can I stab someone with a hidden blade directly in front of a guard in AC1 and he won't notice till the body drops?

Better yet, why can I stab someone, from the front, without guards noticing, but if I poison them from behind everyone notices?

Inconspicous: because nobody suspects the guy with all the weapons

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Better BETTER yet, how come I can force a group of guards into open conflict and take out half of them while they're all in battle stance in the new games?

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I think Calvar is referring to, in Ac1, you can stab a guard in front of his buddies, and they won't notice till the body drops.

If i was a guard, I'd be suspicious if a hooded man jabbed his left hand in to somebody's stomach. And, you're a guard, even the fact that some random hooded guy touches you should draw your attention,

Great point Calvar, never thought that surprisingly

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I think it all depends on how far away you are from the guards. If you do it DIRECTLY in front of them (a few feet away), they'll notice. If you do it several yards away, where the only odd things you do is slip your hand over their mouth and press your hand against their back, they won't notice. Don't forget the guards aren't looking at one of their own. If you stab a guard and make it look like you bumped into them and let the dying guard wobble in place with enough time for you to walk away, they won't notice. If they happen to see the "bump" and a few seconds later, see their colleague fall down, they'll assume someone (the "clumsy" hooded man) murdered him a few seconds before. That's why they constantly yell for the killer after they examine the body.

I think you really need to improve your stealth kills if you encounter this enough to gripe about it. lol

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No, Joey. Just no.

How hard can it be to notice a hooded man over somebody's mouth and press his hand against his back. Especially when the more guards are 25 feet away

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yeah i wonderd the same when i was playin ACB no more than 30 mins ago i don't get how they can't notice a hooded man lurkin around in the area ? plus Altair and ezio(ACB) have bright white robes.... my conclusion gaurds have bad eye sight

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which

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Back in Altair's time was when Assassins were beginning. Not many people paid attention to them, because they were new, and somewhat of a myth to much of the people. White robes weren't entirely uncommon. The game only makes you and scholars wear white to give the player a hint to hide in "similarly looking groups" so you can blend with them. A random scholar bumping into someone for a split second isn't something you get over excited about to your enemies.

The situation I'm thinking of is a few guards with their arms crossed guarding an alley. The area in front of them has civilians walking back and forth. The guards have been standing there all day. They're tired, bored, thoughts wandering, and possibly hungry. Unless someone starts sprinting towards them or gets too close, they're not going to lift a finger. They're just waiting for their shift to end. Of course it's just a game, but there's a reason why the proximity of killing anyone near them matters. If you kill anyone even 15 feet away with people walking back and forth in front of a small group that has been standing around all day, they won't give a f*ck until someone falls down dead. That's the justification.

I don't see how this is so hard to understand. Think of them each as a person, not as an AI. That's how they make mistakes like any of us would do in that situation. It explains the proximity limit a little better.

Now, Ezio's robes in ACB are extremely bright and practically begging for attention. I think Ubi just wants to make the game easier for newer players. Making Ezio's enemies mentally ill, apparently.

And bad eyesight is possible. I never thought my eyesight was bad until I took a test at an eye doctor's, so some might be near-sighted, making it harder to see the random kills right in front of them (still don't know why you'd do that in the first place).

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Excellent point Joey, I had not thought of it like that. I did like how in Ac1, Altair's robes were common as a lot of monks wore them, and at a glance, or even directly looking at, you couldn't differ between an Assassin and a Monk.

Ezio's robes in Ac2, in my opinion, looked normal and casual. Just a sort of "Look at me, I'm important" type thing. If I saw somebody wearing those robes back then, I'd be like "Wow, that guy looks sharp!" or "Showoff."

If I saw Ezio's Roman robes back then I'd say something along the lines of."What the hell?"

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Yeah, the AC2 outfit made him look important, but not attention-getting. ACB's just seemed out of the norm compared to everyone else. Maybe that's why he used a disguise in the story...3 times. -_- (Did I forget one?)

Which is why I'm happy with ACR's outfit. It's harder to spot out of a crowd. But also intimidating. I like it.

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JoeyFogey wrote:
I think it all depends on how far away you are from the guards. If you do it DIRECTLY in front of them (a few feet away), they'll notice. If you do it several yards away, where the only odd things you do is slip your hand over their mouth and press your hand against their back, they won't notice. Don't forget the guards aren't looking at one of their own. If you stab a guard and make it look like you bumped into them and let the dying guard wobble in place with enough time for you to walk away, they won't notice. If they happen to see the "bump" and a few seconds later, see their colleague fall down, they'll assume someone (the "clumsy" hooded man) murdered him a few seconds before. That's why they constantly yell for the killer after they examine the body.

I think you really need to improve your stealth kills if you encounter this enough to gripe about it. lol

I don't think this was directed at me, but what I was saying is that guards are more aware of a hooded guy stabbing a guy with a blade so long it potrudes through his back. Therefore, they are more intelligent.

The reason that you can kill so many of them is because Ezio's mechanics have been increased in effectiveness, and the lower-level guards are treated like cannon fodder. If you fought the guards who have the ability to attack more often and through kill animations (like brotherhood ones) as well as doing enough damage to take out a health bar quickly, if you fought them with AC1 mechanics, they would attack too fast, and you would have no medicine to heal from damage, and if you tried to counter they could hit you mid-counter.

At no point has the AI of the guards been decreased. They were worse at spotting poison in AC2 than Brotherhood. Now they notice as long as they were looking in your direction as you did it. That is an improvement.

But it doesn't work perfectly. Why? Because the increases are not enough to provide an appropriate challenge to an assassin who has fast-climbing, executions, smoke bombs, parachutes, crossbow/gun/three-hit-knives, and health packs.

Not because of them being stupider. They're responding with a level of increased intelligence to something that easily outstrips that level.

Get me?

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I think the outfits reflect the games.

AC1: Stealthy, cool, and calculated (LOL BUT HE HAS A SWORD LOL BUT WHAT ABOUT SHORT BLADE AND THEM THROWING KNIVES!??!?!?Whatever, he blended in with the scholars and monks of the period)

AC2: Direct, powerful, varied

ACB: Ridiculous and very loud (though initially I thought he looked fantastic I decided that his outfit was too flamboyant to blend in with anything or anyone)

ACR: ??? We'll see if the dark, stealthy, and rustic outfit can match the feel of the game.

And as for guards in general, they have always been stupid. The best fighters were probably in AC1, and the best at detection were probably in AC2. Brotherhood guards were sloppy and easily disposed of, even the ones that carried guns or crossbows.

If they really want to ramp up the difficulty, Templar Captains should be the standard elite guards while Elite guards should be regulars (this is in terms of overall combat and detection skills), that would put a very large emphasis on the path of stealth that this game desperately needs to regain.

On that note, if they decide to stick with the idea of fighting in open conflict, then I sincerely hope they bring back quickstepping. That was unquestionably my favorite element of combat in AC2 aside from unarmed finishers. Quickstepping would allow for even better maneuverability and perhaps a way to help continue combos. It felt awkward to be mowing down guards while engaged in combat and then returning to a slow pace when a group was disposed of as others were just out of reach in ACB. If they want to continue along the trend of fast combat, quickstepping needs to be reintroduced.

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
...if you fought them with AC1 mechanics, they would attack too fast, and you would have no medicine to heal from damage, and if you tried to counter they could hit you mid-counter.

Whoa! That's like...challenging! Who wants that in games nowadays? FLAE's eye roll

Calvar The Blade wrote:
...the increases are not enough to provide an appropriate challenge to an assassin who has fast-climbing, executions, smoke bombs, parachutes, crossbow/gun/three-hit-knives, and health packs.

Not because of them being stupider. They're responding with a level of increased intelligence to something that easily outstrips that level.

Further proving that Ezio has too many weapons and gadgets at his disposal. It's too easy now. The only thing we have to fear in these games anymore is being detected.

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Medicine is the ultimate trolling device in Assassin's Creed:

Guard: We're gonna do it! We've got him! He's in his critical state! We're gonna kill Ezio! Oh man, maybe Rodrigo will give me a raise! Wait until I tell my wife that we're--

Ezio: LOL FULL HEALTH U MAD BRO I HAVE 14 MORE OF THESE

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LMFAO

Seriously medicine is just a joke, I never used it at all in ACB and just accepted death. If I actually used medicine properly I would never die except from crazy suicidal jumps from a viewpoint ( which wouldnt even work thanks to the parachute...)

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why do we even have health ? why did'nt they just keep it the sync bar like in AC 1

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I liked the regenerative sync bar from AC1 better than manually healing and/or being stuck with the health you end up with at the end of a fight. The regenerative bar made more sense with the "science" of AC. The less mistakes you make, the more in sync you are with the ancestor.

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I like health packs, I just don't like it when they don't fully restore your health, and you have too many of them. (AC2/Brotherhood)

On a different note, Brotherhood impressed me with how often I had to use health packs, even if I was totally destroying people, they actually do more damage than you'd think.

Now if only they could do finishing blows when your health is gone, and they attacked more often and faster.

About having AC1 mechanics with Brotherhood AI,
#1, you can't counter mid-hit, and since brotherhood guards actually do a lot more damage, that would be bad. Not to mention they attack more often, and sometimes right after each other. It would not be a "challenge". It would be extreme aggravation added to a game that already feels too aggravating when things go wrong. (I am not bad at the game. The game's detection sounds are obnoxious, the chase and fight music gets really repetitive, and enemies sometimes can detect you when they should not have been able to, and don't detect you when they should be able to.)

#2, I only brought it up as an example of how Ubisoft has been making them way better in a lot of ways.

On the subject of elite guards, I want an elite bomb-user. That would be interesting.

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
On a different note, Brotherhood impressed me with how often I had to use health packs, even if I was totally destroying people, they actually do more damage than you'd think.

Yes, so running away when you're weak and regaining your sync is good enough for me. Especially when I can take out 3 guards at once with throwing knives and stall them for hours with smoke bombs, along with shooting at them with both a gun and crossbow. Health packs are a necessity!!! Can't live without 'em!

Calvar The Blade wrote:
#1, you can't counter mid-hit, and since brotherhood guards actually do a lot more damage, that would be bad. Not to mention they attack more often, and sometimes right after each other. It would not be a "challenge". It would be extreme aggravation added to a game that already feels too aggravating when things go wrong.

#1: AC1 was easy enough to counter. It also allowed for the player to hit quickly and end it faster by hitting the attack button as soon as the blades hit each other. So everyone wins. No one likes to read instructions anymore, apparently.

Also, have you ever seen even a fistfight? Both competitors usually wait around for the other to attack. Eventually, one of them attacks. Repeat. It's not "boring" to wait for one out of 6 enemies to attack; it's intense. You don't know who will lunge at you, and it's up to you to counteract their attempt to flank you. That's the entire premise of AC's original fighting system summed up.

#2: I've been explaining thoroughly why the enemy AI has been getting dumber and easier. Even as I play AC1 now, I'm wary not to get the attention of even the lowest ranking guards.

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
I like health packs, I just don't like it when they don't fully restore your health, and you have too many of them. (AC2/Brotherhood)

On a different note, Brotherhood impressed me with how often I had to use health packs, even if I was totally destroying people, they actually do more damage than you'd think.

Now if only they could do finishing blows when your health is gone, and they attacked more often and faster.

I'm gonna have to go with Joey and say that the sync system is not only better, but flows more appropriately with the story than "drink this, instantly come back from brink of death." The sync health system
causes players to act carefully both in and out of combat, considering that once they're exposed, healing is going to be difficult. In a Brotherhood combat environment, the SHS is perfect because of how fast-paced and constant the combat is. You have to react quickly to avoid being hit. If you can master this, great, but if you find yourself constantly dying, you'll have to approach whatever you're doing in a stealthier fashion.

The only reason the SHS didn't really work with AC1 was because a fight was so f*cking slow. A regenerating system calls for fast action to provide a challenge. The guards in AC1 would literally wind up like shot-put throwers to attack you, spinning around to gain momentum, and you knew they were attacking before they could even finish building momentum. It was ridiculous, and that's what made fights like Arsuf so damn easy.

Now imagine Arsuf with the combat system of Brotherhood but the health system of AC1. That's not only a potential bloodbath-esque massacre the likes of which we've never seen in an Assassin's Creed story, it's also ridiculously challenging. Can you survive an onslaught of 20-30 guards charging at you constantly? Without healing? It's much better than standing at the center of a flash mob of guards waiting three centuries for their first attack, or even mindlessly pressing the Xbox X button button and pointing in random directions as you slice through guards that seem like they received military training from the University of Phoenix.

And, as Joey mentioned earlier, the system flows better with the story. Staying in sync with Altair or Ezio by not dying, and regaining synchronization as you avoid conflict seems to reflect better with the ideals of assassins and the game overall rather than cutting through cannon-fodder level guards like butter and then using three medicine vials to erase all your mistakes as if nothing happened. Oh, and with a full pouch we can do this five times. You're right in that there are way too many medicine vials available throughout Brotherhood, but that's about all you're gonna get from me in terms of agreement. Do you really need to fully heal fifteen (let alone five) times during one fight?

Calvar the Blade wrote:
About having AC1 mechanics with Brotherhood AI,

#1, you can't counter mid-hit, and since brotherhood guards actually do a lot more damage, that would be bad. Not to mention they attack more often, and sometimes right after each other. It would not be a "challenge". It would be extreme aggravation added to a game that already feels too aggravating when things go wrong. (I am not bad at the game. The game's detection sounds are obnoxious, the chase and fight music gets really repetitive, and enemies sometimes can detect you when they should not have been able to, and don't detect you when they should be able to.)

You'd be upset about getting attacked when vulnerable? God forbid the idiotic guards do something right for once, attack the man they've been trying to capture and kill for almost forty years while he's cutting through someone else. The guards swarming would instantly make combat immensely more challenging, which is something that would be welcomed by the majority of AC players being that a constant complaint across all the games has been that the combat system is far too easy and simplistic. If it's too aggravating, then approach the scenario in a different fashion. A swarm of four to five guards can be handled fairly well, but maybe getting swarmed by packs of ten that include all different sorts of archetypes or a group of elites isn't the best idea. Probably better to nab your target without setting off any bells and whistles than take on a rampaging Templar Platoon. Swarming encourages stealth and ramps up combat difficulty, what's not to love?

Also, if your biggest gripes with the combat system are the sound effects, something is very very off with your priorities regarding it.

However, I do agree that something must be done about detection. AC2 probably handled it the best, but the other games have had more obnoxious moments than I can count. I was detected far too often in AC1 for ridiculous reasons, and I was barely noticed in Brotherhood. I managed to kill the French General/King/whatever the hell he was in thirty seconds with a five minute time limit without killing anyone else. I infiltrated a heavily guarded military base undetected and killed the guy without anyone noticing. It should be simple, really. If you make noise within earshot of a guard or are committing suspicious actions within a guard's line of sight, you should initiate a warning from the guard or be exposed. It's that simple, I don't understand why Ubisoft has such a hard time figuring this out. Also, it would be really cool if the guards were less alert at night time or early morning, much like in Ubi's other series Far Cry.

Calvar the Blade wrote:
On the subject of elite guards, I want an elite bomb-user. That would be interesting.

It would depend on how they were implemented (can they use the bombs to not only do damage to Ezio but also stop him from escaping?) but enemy bomb users would certainly add some more flavor to the AI.

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JoeyFogey wrote:
Calvar The Blade wrote:
On a different note, Brotherhood impressed me with how often I had to use health packs, even if I was totally destroying people, they actually do more damage than you'd think.

Yes, so running away when you're weak and regaining your sync is good enough for me. Especially when I can take out 3 guards at once with throwing knives and stall them for hours with smoke bombs, along with shooting at them with both a gun and crossbow. Health packs are a necessity!!! Can't live without 'em!

Calvar The Blade wrote:
#1, you can't counter mid-hit, and since brotherhood guards actually do a lot more damage, that would be bad. Not to mention they attack more often, and sometimes right after each other. It would not be a "challenge". It would be extreme aggravation added to a game that already feels too aggravating when things go wrong.

#1: AC1 was easy enough to counter. It also allowed for the player to hit quickly and end it faster by hitting the attack button as soon as the blades hit each other. So everyone wins. No one likes to read instructions anymore, apparently.

Also, have you ever seen even a fistfight? Both competitors usually wait around for the other to attack. Eventually, one of them attacks. Repeat. It's not "boring" to wait for one out of 6 enemies to attack; it's intense. You don't know who will lunge at you, and it's up to you to counteract their attempt to flank you. That's the entire premise of AC's original fighting system summed up.

#2: I've been explaining thoroughly why the enemy AI has been getting dumber and easier. Even as I play AC1 now, I'm wary not to get the attention of even the lowest ranking guards.

#1: I don't really know why you're sayin this to me, I never said it was boring to be surrounded by 6 people and only have one person attack. But now that you mention it, yes, yes it is. It is extremely boring. A fistfight as you describe is between two people. With a gang on one person, no-one waits their turn. I know that for sure. And seriously, that's a really terrible premise. What I DID say, was that if you are countering, an another enemy attacks you, it will clip right through you. In Brotherhood, if you don't press counter when they do that, you get hit. Aborting the animation to do so can mean that your original target doesn't die, if the animation hadn't progressed far enough yet. This can lead to a more fast-paced and reactive style of fighting, when it happens. I am NOT here to talk about what I think about AC1's fighting system. I gave examples of how guards have become more formidable, and that is the only thing I brought up Brotherhood combat for.

#2: And as I said, I find most of the ways which they detect you to be totally BS. You are in your blend button (which was probably my least favorite part of the game. Holding a button isn't stealth, whatever anyone says.) and you bump a guy carrying something. Immediately, they know it is you. there is no in-between. They are totally rock stupid, or they know your whole life story and purpose from the smallest disturbance.

I like how guards in AC2 and Brotherhood react to disturbances when not notorious, but I think that as soon as you have even a little notoriety, they should notice you while they are interrogating you, so you must run away after triggering a minor problem. Also notoriety should be harder to get rid of, and more of a long-term thing. But that's another story.

Guards have had their ridiculous spider-senses tuned down since AC1, yes. But they are more intelligent in actual believable ways, now.

I don't consider being hyper attuned to the player to make an enemy more intelligent.

Is an enemy in an FPS more intelligent because they can hit you from 5 miles away and never miss? Guess why not? Because doing that is basically hacking the matrix. That does not give a sense of "wow, they got me", it gives a sense of "wow, the system is designed to get me no matter what".

The areas where I think that guards need to be more aware are totally different from the areas they were more aware in AC1.

Namely, they should search more hiding spots before giving up, they should remember you if you pop out just after they ended the chase after you, (after about 2 minutes, it's ok to reset) they should have longer FOV's, and fastest detection speed should happen from further away, crowd density between them and you could be measured, possibly, bringing down and eventually nullifying their detection rate...

Stuff like that.

That is the kind of thing that creates the illusion of intelligence for me.

I never felt like guards in AC1 were intelligent.

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Christ, you're more hard-headed than the terrible "rock stupid" AI we're discussing.

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
I never felt like guards in AC1 were intelligent.

Quite honestly, I don't believe they've ever been completely intelligent serving all three of their purposes. In AC1, their fighting was abysmal for obvious reasons. In AC2, their pursuing was laughable (if I had a florin for every time a guard drowned or killed himself running after me in Venice I could rebuild Monterrigioni from scratch). In ACB, their detecting skills were pathetic except for in notorious zones, and even then their obliviousness to what was going on around them made it seem as if the Borgia hired a squad of Hellen Kellers to track down Ezio.

JoeyFogey wrote:
Christ, you're more hard-headed than the terrible "rock stupid" AI we're discussing.

It's a debate about one element of a deep video game series. Chill out.

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All I did was explain how I feel about AC1's AI.

I understand that your opinion is that AC1's fighting system was better, so I explained what I liked about Brotherhood.

And you said that a group of people vs 1 person would be one on one. You know that's not true. A gang on one guy is grappling and choking and punching.

And what's more, I never said anything about waiting to counter being stupid. I just said that with Brotherhood's system, more attack frequency and speed is nessesary to keep challenge. That thing kinda came from nowhere.

What I did in that last post was explain my reasoning for my opinion.

If you don't like my reasoning, then say so and then agree to disagree.

If you see flaws in my reasoning, then say so and I'll be happy to hear them.

Some of you guys really don't seem to like counter-arguments. Realize that it's not to be taken personally. I'm discussing, and part of discussion is presenting a point, and then thinking of how the point could be flawed, then revising a point.

I have better discussions on the official forums, now. Which is really saying something.

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I'm going to assume that your comment was directed towards Joey since I think I've been pretty respectful and engaging towards you here (considering you generally post only in the AC-related topics and this is the first Revelations discussion I've participated in in a while). I'm still confused why you're feuding with him rather than responding to my points. I've tried to facilitate a discussion but apparently you've chosen to ignore it.

What's more is that you say none of this is to be taken personally, then in the next breath say that you hold better conversations with the thirteen-year-olds on Ubi's forum. If we're really all bad at discussing and debating the finer and weaker points of Assassin's Creed in general, and you barely post in any other sub-forums on here, I don't understand what you're doing at THB to begin with.

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Calvar The Blade wrote:
I understand that your opinion is that AC1's fighting system was better, so I explained what I liked about Brotherhood.

And you said that a group of people vs 1 person would be one on one. You know that's not true. A gang on one guy is grappling and choking and punching.

I never said it was better or even best. I'm pointing out how the AI has learned to take a hidden blade to the kidney like a pincushion takes...pins. No challenge whatsoever. Makes me want to just read a book adaptation over playing it.

And you misread my example. Mine was a micro level look at an average fight. When swords are involved, you won't attack all at once with a blade dancing in your face in the hand of the man that just murdered your captain from 50 feet above.

Calvar The Blade wrote:
And what's more, I never said anything about waiting to counter being stupid. I just said that with Brotherhood's system, more attack frequency and speed is nessesary to keep challenge. That thing kinda came from nowhere.

No, actually I was referring to your opinion intertwining with the hundreds of other people who say the fighting needs to be faster and more stylish in some manner. Having patience and striking only when necessary takes more skill than mashing one button. This should have been more of a game centered around precision.

Calvar The Blade wrote:
If you see flaws in my reasoning, then say so and I'll be happy to hear them.

What do you think I've been doing? I'm actually seeing why many users don't reply to your comments as much as me. It never goes anywhere. And I lose interest quickly. I think Gopher Blaine summed it up nicely a few months ago.

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JoeyFogey wrote:
Calvar The Blade wrote:
If you see flaws in my reasoning, then say so and I'll be happy to hear them.

What do you think I've been doing? I'm actually seeing why many users don't reply to your comments as much as me. It never goes anywhere. And I lose interest quickly. I think Gopher Blaine summed it up nicely a few months ago.

Actually he gets a fair amount of replies, its just most of the people that agree with him are the few thirteen-year-olds on this site that are unaware of more words in the English language other than "YEAH I AGREE LOL" and/or "OMG YOU TOTES READ MAH MIND."

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Should've put "...doesn't get many replies from mature users..." in there. lol

And my long message before this was me ending the discussion, so yesh. :3

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In response to your last thing, Joey, I really didn't say anything about what I thought the combat should be like. I never said that I preferred it one way or the other. So I don't know where you came from on that.

But while we're on the subject, I'm saying that with the current system that we have, faster guards is what we need. That is the end of what I'm saying. Sure, I enjoy fast-paced fights. But that doesn't apply to what I'm talking about. We know what the system is, so we have to work from within when thinking of ideas for it. Ubi will most likely never go back to a slower pace. Almost garunteed.

And regarding how actual fights work, I know that everyone won't attack at the same time. But really, the amount of time that it took each guard to react is far too much to be considered normal or realistic. At the very least, two would attack at the same or almost the same time. And guards would definately push the advantage when you're in a big kill animation.

And FLAE, I'm sorry, I never saw your posts until now. I'll go read them.

As for people responding to me, that seems like some sort of insult. Rest assured, I don't care about my "response count". I like this forum mainly for being able to throw my opinion into the ring.

"Calvar The Blade wrote:
#1, you can't counter mid-hit, and since brotherhood guards actually do a lot more damage, that would be bad. Not to mention they attack more often, and sometimes right after each other. It would not be a "challenge". It would be extreme aggravation added to a game that already feels too aggravating when things go wrong.
Joey Fogey wrote:

#1: AC1 was easy enough to counter. It also allowed for the player to hit quickly and end it faster by hitting the attack button as soon as the blades hit each other. So everyone wins. No one likes to read instructions anymore, apparently."

That was not an actual response to what I said. it brought up other things that I wasn't talking about, and implied that I didn't know how to play AC1 combat. Also, It doesn't really make that much sense.

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Fly Like an Eagle wrote:
I'm going to assume that your comment was directed towards Joey since I think I've been pretty respectful and engaging towards you here (considering you generally post only in the AC-related topics and this is the first Revelations discussion I've participated in in a while). I'm still confused why you're feuding with him rather than responding to my points. I've tried to facilitate a discussion but apparently you've chosen to ignore it.

What's more is that you say none of this is to be taken personally, then in the next breath say that you hold better conversations with the thirteen-year-olds on Ubi's forum. If we're really all bad at discussing and debating the finer and weaker points of Assassin's Creed in general, and you barely post in any other sub-forums on here, I don't understand what you're doing at THB to begin with.

Actually, I only said that because at the Ubi forums, my discussions don't usually end with Joey saying that I care too much about the issue or something.

It's not really anyone else, and most of the time, you're great, Joey. And EA doesn't really help discussability on this forum.

Its also because having more people tends to just sort of help. More viewpoints in each discussion. This is a fine site, but it seems that I run into misunderstanding a lot more here. And resolving it is more difficult with less people, funnily.

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Fly Like an Eagle wrote:
Calvar The Blade wrote:
I never felt like guards in AC1 were intelligent.

Quite honestly, I don't believe they've ever been completely intelligent serving all three of their purposes. In AC1, their fighting was abysmal for obvious reasons. In AC2, their pursuing was laughable (if I had a florin for every time a guard drowned or killed himself running after me in Venice I could rebuild Monterrigioni from scratch). In ACB, their detecting skills were pathetic except for in notorious zones, and even then their obliviousness to what was going on around them made it seem as if the Borgia hired a squad of Hellen Kellers to track down Ezio.

JoeyFogey wrote:
Christ, you're more hard-headed than the terrible "rock stupid" AI we're discussing.

It's a debate about one element of a deep video game series. Chill out.

Yes, that really is the heart of the matter. They have not ever been that smart.

But I do think that there's a small amount of improvement as it's gone on. But, not enough.

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"You'd be upset about getting attacked when vulnerable? God forbid the idiotic guards do something right for once, attack the man they've been trying to capture and kill for almost forty years while he's cutting through someone else. The guards swarming would instantly make combat immensely more challenging, which is something that would be welcomed by the majority of AC players being that a constant complaint across all the games has been that the combat system is far too easy and simplistic. If it's too aggravating, then approach the scenario in a different fashion. A swarm of four to five guards can be handled fairly well, but maybe getting swarmed by packs of ten that include all different sorts of archetypes or a group of elites isn't the best idea. Probably better to nab your target without setting off any bells and whistles than take on a rampaging Templar Platoon. Swarming encourages stealth and ramps up combat difficulty, what's not to love?

Also, if your biggest gripes with the combat system are the sound effects, something is very very off with your priorities regarding it."

*sigh*

I've been trying to say this, but I have no problem with more challenge. I only used the AC1 example as a foil for Brotherhood's enemies, showing how they have improved.
But for AC1, there is a slight problem with enemies attacking you when you are in an animation and having no way of getting out, would you not agree? that's the part that makes it kinda unapliccable as a direct replacement. I'm sure that feature could be removed, but then the guard's biggest improvement is gone.

And as for the music, I was talking about general things that made AC1 aggravating. minor gameplay things combined with sound effect and musical cues that instantly make me angry when I hear them now.

Not my biggest problem with the combat. Mine was the same as yours: its slowness.

"However, I do agree that something must be done about detection. AC2 probably handled it the best, but the other games have had more obnoxious moments than I can count. I was detected far too often in AC1 for ridiculous reasons, and I was barely noticed in Brotherhood. I managed to kill the French General/King/whatever the hell he was in thirty seconds with a five minute time limit without killing anyone else. I infiltrated a heavily guarded military base undetected and killed the guy without anyone noticing. It should be simple, really. If you make noise within earshot of a guard or are committing suspicious actions within a guard's line of sight, you should initiate a warning from the guard or be exposed. It's that simple, I don't understand why Ubisoft has such a hard time figuring this out. Also, it would be really cool if the guards were less alert at night time or early morning, much like in Ubi's other series Far Cry."

Yeh, suspicious actions when in a restricted area should instantly mark you. And enemies are only sensitive to sound in the games if you're on the same part of the x axis as them. That should be changed, but not so severly that guards on the street hear you on a high rooftop.

Regarding bomb users, Gabe said that there would be bomb using enemies in the game, but there has been no more detail on that.

I'd be fine with their main function being damage, really. Getting poisoned would not be fun.

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All stuff about "I have more mature conversations there", "there are only thirteen-year-olds there", etc.
CUT IT THE F**** OUT
That's not debate. It's not even reasoning. It's a form of ad hominem, and that doesn't belong anywhere.

A real debate isn't a fight. There is no 'winner'. It's about discussing a problem and reaching an endpoint, whether that'd be 'agree to disagree', a compromise between your views, or a shift in view of one side. The most important thing in a debate is willingness to see the other side's logic and concede where conceding is necessary. You have to be aware that you can be mistaken. If you try to just convince the other, chances are they won't agree. Studies have shown that if you challenge someone's opinion, that opinion only gets affirmed in their minds. So be FLEXIBLE.

Otherwise, you might just as well talk to a wall.

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JoeyFogey wrote:
...this was me ending the discussion...

5 new comments and 4 of them are from Calvar. Still talking about the same thing. O_o

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Can't believe I actually just sat and read the last 20 or so comments... Puzzled

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I just gave up on the comments and kept checking back to see if we got back on topic :s ,to assist this process I think elite guards are a great idea, just to add what I think we all agree these games need at the moment, challenge!!

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Oh my god that is A LOT of reading. Curse you Calvar and your in-depth posts!

As for the bombs, FLAE. I sprouted that idea at the first thread, my idea was to have guards use those thick smoke bombs that were introduced in Revelations, therefor making Eagle Sense not just another over-powered thing Ezio has, but something actually required to survive.

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Just smoke or explosives might make the most sense for enemy bombs. Flash bombs would be fun to provide challenge, but I'm not sure that concept was fully realized by Ezio's time. Maybe in Desmond's sections.

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I just think Eagle Sense shouldn't be included if it isn't used for purposes other than making slaughter even easier